【栖心茶话】【4K超高清版】EP08 悲喜: “它是深深地留在心里的” | 圆桌派 第七季 | 窦文涛/陈其钢/许子东/陈鲁豫 | 优酷纪实人文 YOUKU DOCUMENTARY

【栖心茶话】【4K超高清版】EP08 悲喜: “它是深深地留在心里的” | 圆桌派 第七季 | 窦文涛/陈其钢/许子东/陈鲁豫 | 优酷纪实人文 YOUKU DOCUMENTARY

This program is sponsored by the GAC Honda Guandao, which offers a luxurious and comfortable ride. This program is co-sponsored by Yibao Zhiben Qingrun™ Chrysanthemum Tea. You have read this book. I have read it. You will feel cold later . I really think Teacher Chen will feel cold . You can invite Teacher Chen from Zhejiang to Beijing this time. I think he has a kind of will. His face is rosy. I watch it. In your program, his skin looks particularly good. It feels like you have done beauty filters on him. There is really no Teacher Chen. Thank you. Let me introduce you to our “Luyu Youyue” host, Teacher Chen. Hello , Luyu, hello, please sit down for a while. You usually have to do this in Beijing . At home . I don’t wear a mask at home, so I can not wear a mask today, but I won’t let you take it off. You should wear it first. I dare not let you take it off casually . If you need to wear it now , just wear it. Can’t you wear it later? In the end, what is the role of this machine ? It plays a boosting role. You don’t hold your breath . It goes in through a filter, and then there is a motor inside to suck the air in. What about your home in Beijing? There is a fresh air system at home, and then there is air filtration. I am in a very bad condition today and may not be in a good condition recently . Do you have a fever ? No , my lungs are shrinking and getting smaller, so I gasp after walking a few steps, so you will feel that I am alive Your life is out of control. You feel like you can’t control it . Is there no other way without modern medicine? What about artificial lungs? They can replace lungs in the end. But replacing lungs has a bigger problem of rejection . If you don’t have physical strength, it will be very difficult. But she wondered why you looked so good, especially when she saw our show last time. She said your face was rosy. She thought we had done beauty treatment on you. That’s what we call tuberculosis red. Tuberculosis red means that when you have lung disease, no matter what disease it is, there will be a kind of red , that is, flushing. Because of the temperature, the body temperature rises and it is reflected here, so it’s like putting on makeup. To me, you said your face is rosy, so why are you so red? What about this season in Beijing? The air in Beijing at this time is filled with catkins and pollen. Most people will feel uncomfortable. It is mainly because you have to see a doctor and come here. After the operation, the cancer is completely cured. Cancer can never be cured. The potential cells will always exist and you cannot eliminate them. It depends on your physical condition. I think I am actually a little more balanced now. I may be able to catch my breath after sitting down . Because it is only a dozen steps from the car to here, I will feel out of breath. Do you think it is better in Huangniling? Relatively speaking, you will always stay in a fixed place for a long time. After you settle in a place, you will feel a kind of stupidity. You are fixed in a place, your thinking is the same every day, and you need a change of environment. I stayed there for a whole year. This time, I haven’t been out for two years. No , I watched that documentary. What year was that when I went to Shanghai ? I went to Shanghai last year. This was the only time I went out. Going out once was a major test for me. I was very conflicted before I went. I started to have a fever after I got there , and then I got sick for ten days. In fact, it’s mainly about meeting different people. For you, it’s just a matter of time. I’ll say it again. After today, I will definitely get sick because I have to exert much more physical strength and energy than usual. I can hold on so that people will think this person is normal. I am holding on now. Understand. Then don’t talk for now . Close your eyes and rest for a while. I talked to him. When we first met, I didn’t dare to speak loudly. Now I feel that I am facing a person who has had two lungs removed. In fact, you were originally living in seclusion there. If it is based on ancient Chinese, there is such a state of mind . Sometimes I wonder what is the difference between autism and me. I don’t really understand. Teacher Xu , why is Teacher Xu the same as the black team? Long time no see. Teacher Chen Qigang , hello, this is the director of the Department of Literature of Lingnan University, and the director of the Chinese Department is Teacher Xu. You two are from the same hometown. You are Huang Yan is from Taizhou, and I am also from Taizhou. We are from the same place. Huang Yan is Taizhou. As for me, I fell down a while ago, so I often wear sunglasses . My nose and eyes were swollen . Oh my god , I have been working for Wong Kar-wai for a while. Is that okay ? Now we are all here. We can take our seats. Okay, Mr. Chen, take your time . Don’t rush. Just like Mr. Chen, when we were on “Traveling Around the World”, we went to Suichang Lishui. There is a village called Huangniling in the mountains . There is a (Gonggeng) Academy there. Mr. Chen lived in seclusion in that place and lived in that academy . It was really a deep mountain , just like the one written by Tao Yuanming, but he made a lot of music there . This includes music workshops and working classes. Many composers and musicians from all over the world will go to the island to discuss music. It’s very interesting . It’s an island. You have to wade through water and take a boat. This (Gonggeng Academy) is a non-profit organization. Their music workshops are free of charge. I have only run four sessions . Then I couldn’t run it because of my poor health. We just recruit students who are willing to come . We have a screening method to let those young people who are really ambitious come. This still needs younger people to do it. When I started, I was already at the end of my strength, so I couldn’t stick to it. But most of them actually I still stay alone, so the yard is very big. In fact, I am alone all year round. They don’t quite understand why I stay in the room all the time. I don’t understand either. In fact, what do I do when I stay in the room from morning to night? You said that I listen to a lot of radio in the room. I also listen to books, and then I also think and want to write. It’s mainly because I can’t stand it anymore, so I go out for a walk. So because there are farmers who are responsible for breeding over there, they know that there is such a person living here and they never see people. It’s just such a state. After staying for a long time, there will be a little bit, how to say it? After two years, I will feel a little strange in my heart. I think I should come out and breathe a little different air . Okay, let ‘s learn about this habit of Teacher Chen last time . Teacher Chen, has it started? Has it started? Has it started ? Don’t say nonsense. Even if it has started, well , it has started. Let me introduce the machine first. You see, I am not promoting products. This is Teacher Chen Qigang coming to Beijing to do a program. Why am I particularly moved that he wants to bring the air purifier from his home here? Because he has a serious lung disease and had surgery a few years ago . Just now, Lu Yu was still asking how many lungs there are. The two of us are studying how many lungs there are. He said he doesn’t know too much. The two of us, Teacher Chen Please share your own experience. There are five lungs in total. How many do you have left? There are three on the right and two on the left. On the right (lung), I removed the middle and upper ones , and only the lower one is left. But after removing them, the lower one will naturally float up at the beginning , and then it will expand and take up a part of the space. But no matter how it occupies the original part of the lung cavity , that is, the chest cavity, there will be a lot of empty space. After a long time, your mediastinum , which is the diaphragm that separates the heart and the right lung, will start to move to the right due to the pressure of the heart and the left lung. After moving to the right, it may cause, for example, esophageal compression and another thing is that the entire right chest cavity of the lung will collapse because there is nothing inside. Then your right shoulder will start to move down , that is , your neck and everything will start to shift to the right. Sometimes you will feel helpless, but when you feel these things in the process of living, you will feel that this life is actually not under our control . The problem here is that neither I nor the doctor can solve it. He can only tell you that you have these phenomena now , and your breathing chest cavity, because you only have three lungs left, your three lungs are particularly susceptible to infection because they are relatively weak. And it can’t supply enough oxygen to the body like before , so it invisibly increases the burden on the heart, because the heart has to pump blood to supply oxygen to the whole body , then at this time it has to speed up, and then it will form atrial fibrillation . Atrial fibrillation is very dangerous. There is a risk of blood clots, yes, and other things , such as heart failure in the end. Because it is definitely not suitable for such high-intensity work all the time, so my doctor now recommends that I breathe oxygen for eighteen hours a day or even longer. So at home, I was breathing oxygen all the time on the road, right ? So this is actually when it comes to my cough now. It is very easy to get infected. Once it comes out, it is easy to get sick. So the three of you must not have anything. But Teacher Xu seemed to be in order to cooperate with Teacher Chen’s condition. A few days ago, I fell and got a black eye. This is not contagious. The fall was probably a fight. My head hit a hard stone slab, and there was a sculpture about ten centimeters next to it . People put a stone that high. If I hit it, bye , bye. I was thinking about what kind of sculpture those people put on the flat ground . This is a sign that you are going to connect with this artist. I connected with my heart a long time ago. Didn’t the problem come up a long time ago? So you two are from the same hometown. The personality of Teacher Chen Qigang reminded me of the last time we filmed “Traveling Around the World”. We went to Taizhou and the locals said that the stones in Taizhou are all huge, whole pieces of stone. There is a saying called ” Taizhou people’s toughness”. That’s what Lu Xun said about soft stones. Lu Xun said soft stones means Taizhou people’s toughness in an article. Later, I looked back and saw that my father had this kind of situation , right? The English word for his toughness is stubborn (stubborn), which means very stubborn. He is very stubborn. He is stubborn, which means he doesn’t listen to others. Lu Yu read Teacher Chen’s autobiographical book “The Same Source of Sadness and Joy”. It’s so good . Do you think Teacher Chen Qigang is a very stubborn person ? Or people with a very special personality have a very big contrast because he asked me, “My first impression of you is that you are very fairy-like. ” Then he asked Teacher Chen, “Is Teacher Chen fairy-like?” He said that Teacher Chen is a person with a very special heart . What word do you use? It’s axis, but I think this is two sides of the same coin . It doesn’t affect him . He can live a fairy-like life , but he is a very axisy person in his heart. In fact, when I think about it now, most of my friends are more than ten years older than me. It’s your generation. Why do I think your generation often has this kind of general knowledge structure ? For example, if you talk to someone from a music school about literature and opera, he seems to love music, movies and serious literature. In fact, Wang Shuo also has this knowledge range. He will talk to you. I think such people seem to be getting fewer and fewer with each generation . Later, we see younger people who are more specialized. In fact, they may go deeper than their predecessors in a certain field , but they don’t seem to have this kind of humanistic quality. Is it because of the times ? Because there was no regular professional education at that time , some people have outstanding knowledge in all aspects. It seems that you are classmates with Tan Dun, right? Classmates of Class 77 (Central Conservatory of Music, Composition Department, Class of 77 and 78). Liu Sola is also in “You Have No Choice”. I’m still looking for which one you appeared in. Probably not. Their class is very interesting. What kind of impression do you have of that period? What kind of impression do you think it left on you? It was a very open era. Classmates were very frank and equal. They all came from different regions and different classes , and their ages were at least a dozen years apart . The oldest was born in 1946 and the youngest was born in 1961 , so the gap is huge. Compared with today’s students, I think it is the experience before we entered the school that made these people different, because they all had life experiences. Can you tell us about your experience before entering the school? Before entering the school , I graduated from the Affiliated High School of the Central Conservatory of Music , and happened to experience this special era during that period . During this process, we received ideological transformation in the army for three years , and then were assigned to the Zhejiang Song and Dance Troupe with my future wife. Then these experiences gave us not only a living but also some opportunities to learn. These learning opportunities are completely absent to people today, because the environment of our conservatory is very special . For example, the classmates of the third batch, they had already left the ordinary middle school and went to the countryside. Many people even moved their household registration out. It was harder than climbing to the sky to go back to Beijing, but we did not have that . We were always in the environment of the conservatory of music. Although we were in the affiliated high school , in fact, in the conservatory of music, there was no distinction between the affiliated high school and the university. Sometimes, the level of students in the affiliated high school was even higher than that of the university , because music is not only knowledge, it is a skill major , that is, you must have skills, and this skill actually came before graduating from the affiliated high school. He has already mastered them. Today, you see a erhu player who wants to go to college, then graduate school , and then a doctorate. I find this very strange because every major has its own characteristics. But in our time, being in school was the best learning environment because no one wanted you to attend classes. That is why you could choose freely because teachers were lawless and barbaric. Some people gave up and went home to play, right? Some people would never give up and would definitely learn. Our teacher Xu especially loved listening to classical music . The experience he talked about was what we envied the most at that time . At that time, we were lucky in the factory. Most of us went to the countryside . What we envied the most was that he was in the military and in the arts. He did both, right? At that time, he was a child of destiny. So, in fact , he did get a lot because of the social competition. Everyone stopped driving, so your car seemed very, very superior. Of course, Lu Yu is a little younger than us . We are about the same age. I was born in the 1970s. You have the feeling of being born in the 1970s. Looking at his experience, I think back to 1988 or 1989 when I first knew Teacher Chen’s name. I think back to 1988 or 1989 , when I read Liu Sola’s book. Then I had a deep affection for the people in Class 77. A feeling of reverence that can only be seen by looking up . I was very curious, but there was no Internet in that era, so I didn’t know where to find some information about you. So I knew all their names by heart. Your book wrote that your class later enrolled nearly 30 students. But I really remember that I once saw a small corner in the Beijing Evening News or the People’s Daily, which said that the Central Conservatory of Music enrolled about 10 or 15 students at the beginning. Later, because there were too many talented people , this batch of students was too good , so they expanded the enrollment from 15 to nearly 30. This process is actually a period in Chinese history . I think it is also amazing that not only did we expand our enrollment, we were able to enter the Conservatory of Music , but at that time, three or four teachers from the school jointly wrote a letter to Deng Xiaoping for this expansion . Then, I don’t know if it was Deng Lin or someone else who handed the letter to Deng Xiaoping. Deng Xiaoping personally approved it , so the Conservatory of Music expanded its enrollment. And then after the reform and opening up, studying abroad after college was even more important . Many students went abroad and saw a different world. It was amazing. Today, when young people go abroad, they don’t have this feeling . I don’t think it’s necessarily a good thing . Everything is taken for granted and nothing is a problem. Everything is under your control, and you don’t lack money, right? Then going abroad is just like studying abroad, and you don’t have that kind of eagerness. When we go out, it’s a life-threatening thing , you have to study, you have to learn, you have to succeed, and you have no way out, because we don’t have any overseas connections. No matter you are the child of a cadre, a capitalist , or a farmer, you have no way out. It’s a do-or-die battle, because you rely entirely on government or foreign government or Chinese government scholarships. You can’t not study hard. I think it has something to do with your personality . I think he is very ruthless in his bones , especially on himself. Of course, like some young people today , tell us what stories of successful people you can tell us, right? What effect can those stories of successful people have on us? But I would like to ask Teacher Chen to talk about it. I think, for example, now many people are facing job hunting or you have an opportunity, then maybe an interview opportunity, right? At that time, Teacher Chen wanted to apprentice to the French modern music master Messiaen, who was a famous figure. I originally thought that it was because of some relatives or some other relationship that he accepted you as his apprentice. After reading his book, I found out why he accepted you as his apprentice. You are my disciple , and I tell you today that this matter is still a mystery . If I put myself in his shoes, I would definitely not accept him. Why are there so many people looking for me ? And there are even more people looking for him. Why should he accept him? Then others say that it is because you are talented. How can I be talented? I have no talent at all. I can say that I am a layman who went abroad to study modern Western music of the 20th century. I don’t know anything about what he said. How could you become his disciple? I think it was all God ’s will. This matter can only be explained by luck. Because I could n’t find him if I wanted to find him. And I didn’t expect that I didn’t have the courage to find him. Because until today, if you dare to find a Chinese student, for example, Hemingway, right? I gave this example in my book. For example, Hemingway is famous. You try to learn from him. First of all, you can’t find him , right? And if you find him, what right does he have to teach you? What talent do you have ? What can you prove about you? Why does teaching you benefit him? I have nothing. I also have nothing. So I said this is luck, you know, luck , because I just happened to be looking for him, and then I met such a person on the street on my first day in Bordeaux, France to learn the language . Later, he rode his bicycle and saw us two classmates , then he stopped. On the street, he met a French man , an old man, about 60 years old. He got off his bicycle and asked us if we needed any help. Then we said we had no food and wanted to go find something because all the shops in France were closed on weekends. We didn’t know because we just arrived. Then he said, “Well, I know, just follow me.” Then he said there was a market nearby and we started chatting as we walked . He asked me what I came to study. I said I studied music. When he heard that I studied music, his eyes lit up. Today, we say that people who are engaged in art are despised by everyone, right? At that time and until today, it is still like this in France. All the luck I encountered in France might be related to my major. Then, wasn’t it the same when I was looking for a house later ? That old architect was very classy in France. Architects were aristocrats and people were also human beings. For no reason, he joined a church organization and said that on weekends he was willing to meet some young people who came to France to work and study without jobs, and was willing to give them some help. Then I went to his house. He took the initiative to contact me and called me. Then when he heard that I was studying music, he said he We just started chatting, and then I started talking about Chinese art because my family is full of artists, right? And we chatted in Chinese or in French at that time, but of course the level would be very poor. He didn’t care if you had studied French before. I studied for seven months before going abroad , and then he called me every week and asked me to go to his house. The old couple would have lunch with me and then chat. Later, after a few times, every time he left, he would give me some food to take away. Finally, I said I couldn’t find a place to live, and he said, “Then you can live in my house. ” So I lived in their house for four years for free. In 1987, I worked in the living room on the top floor of the old architect’s house. People who studied art in that place have a kind of blind respect for such people who study art. Then on the day I officially moved into his house , he organized a party and found more than 40 of his friends and told them that I now have Mr. Chen living in my house , and I hope everyone can help him because I just arrived and I don’t know anyone in the place. And among these more than 40 people, I met someone who was very important and who would always help me. So I said these things. Let’s go back to the person at the beginning. They pushed their bicycles and took me there. Then I started to get to know him. He said at noon, “You don’t want it.” Then we went to his house for dinner . What made us happy was that this was the first day in France. I couldn’t understand what was going on. Later, I wrote in my book, ” Why is there so many Lei Fengs in this country?” Then one day , a classmate said that if you want to find a teacher in France, you must find the best one. Who is the best? He asked me , and I said that the best person for learning music is Messiaen. He said, “Then go find Messiaen. ” I said, “How can I find Messiaen? Who am I?” He said, “You are not ashamed in this place, you know? It doesn’t matter if you fail. What do you lose? ” Then he helped me write a letter. I wrote in Chinese and he translated it into French. That’s how we did it . In the end, the reason why he Of course, accepting me was also related to my preparation. We spent two months getting to know Messiaen , and then I wrote a new piece. At the same time, we conducted a practical dialogue. What questions would Messiaen ask? A classmate would have a practical dialogue with you. This classmate was a French major. He was a top student at Beijing Foreign Studies University . Then he accompanied me in practice. Sometimes he played Messiaen, sometimes I played me. Then we would switch positions . So when I went to meet Messiaen, I had already memorized what I was going to say to him , but there would still be some surprises. What surprises were not within the scope of my preparation. This is called a surprise, you know? Because I can’t speak it anymore, but it’s already very good. He only learned French for seven months. So all musicians are geniuses in learning languages, right? There is such a saying. It must be because his hearing is particularly good. The essence of learning a language is that you have to hear clearly and be able to distinguish before you can understand and imitate. You mentioned this sound. I have a very boring detail. I saw that you once watched a foreign orchestra rehearsing about the cello. Then you were sitting in that seat and said that the sound of the cello should be a little smaller. Then the cellist said, “Really?” He said, “I did it on purpose.” I thought I wanted it to be so loud on purpose . Then you said, “Okay, you are right , that’s it.” Why? This does not quite meet your standards. Because he has his feelings on the stage and I have my feelings off the stage. If he feels comfortable, this comfort is very important. For a performer, is he comfortable or are you comfortable? He is comfortable on the stage and he knows what the matching relationship between me and the orchestra is. Then I have a curiosity , so I will follow up on Wentao’s question. In your book, you wrote that your collaboration with Yo-Yo Ma was very special at the beginning. Don’t have high expectations. But after Yo-Yo Ma finishes playing in the rehearsal , you feel very frustrated because it is different from what you expected. But when it comes to the performance , you think his performance is perfect and exceeds your initial expectations . But it is a little different from what you just said. You think he has his own presentation on the stage and you have your own ideas. Then you hope that the performer can finally match your ideas. These are two different fields and two different things. Because when I rehearsed with Yo-Yo Ma , he had no idea that this work was the first time in the world. When he came to rehearse , he didn’t know how to play it. Even I didn’t know either. So when he played it like that in the first rehearsal , I felt that I had written such a thing, which made me very disappointed. I was disappointed with his performance . I’m disappointed with my own music because then you don’t know whether it’s your problem or his problem. This is the challenge of a premiere. A very good work may fail at the premiere. There are many examples, such as Tchaikovsky’s Swan Lake , Berlioz’s Symphonie Fantastique , or Bizet’s Carmen, which were never heard in their lifetime . They were all failures. I heard that there is a theory in aesthetics that says that if no one reads a written work , it is just a score . It doesn’t become a work until someone plays it . So it’s like, I only wrote half of it , and the other half he completed made him depressed. It’s a second creation. I feel a little cold , a little cold. You see, I said that Teacher Chen would feel a little cold . Turn off the air conditioner or increase the temperature a little. Do you have a thicker one? Because I don’t have enough energy, do you? There is a piece of thicker clothing , but it will make noises. It’s okay. You can put it on and turn it off. You mentioned Messiaen. Actually, what I wanted to ask just now is whether it has anything to do with your Chinese background. Yes, he would have some sympathy for the East and Chinese children. Maybe he (Messienne) has some special feelings for the East. I think so, but he doesn’t know much about China . But this doesn’t mean he is very interested in China. I don’t think so. But he is a person who you can put on. No, he doesn’t have cultural discrimination, which is very important. Just because you come from a third world country and you seem ignorant, he will despise you and discriminate against you. He doesn’t have this . I rarely feel this in the (French) literary and art circles. This is not the case . Whether you are a foreign composer or a French composer. The opportunities you get are not much different. I would like to ask Mr. Xu, what is your preference for classical music ? Later, I liked Rachmaninoff more . I found that there is Russian spirit in it. This is my personal hobby . Of course, I started with Beethoven and Mozart. It was also ten years later that I heard “Fate Knocking at the Door” for the first time. For us, this was something that shook our worldviews, but my personal interest was still biased towards Russian music. I like all Russian music, but you know what I am going to say. When he went to France to study music, he found that in the French music hall, there was no place for what you like , that is, Russia. There was no Repin in fine arts, and absolutely no Rachmaninoff and Shostakovich . Is it true that the French don’t recognize these people? You can’t talk about the French in general. You should talk about the French intellectuals, that is, many of them created after they fled to France. That is another matter. Russian artists , such as Stravinsky, started after he arrived in France. But in the French art hall, there is really no trace of Russia. I think this is a problem of national culture. It’s not a question of who is right or wrong. For example, Chinese people like their own works , right? When you go to the West, you have no status at all . They feel that you are absolutely superior, so you will sometimes feel oppressed in this environment, but this oppressive feeling will prompt you to think, and then prompt you to choose your own position. I think this is very good, because only after you see the contrast and the difference, you will suddenly feel a little shaken in your original environment, and then eventually you will gradually return to a position that suits you best. In fact, I like Russia very much, and I still like it very much today. That’s because the education of our generation has a lot in common with that of the Russian generation , or there are many things in common in our society, but in Western European society, their experiences are completely different. They are not sensational, they despise all sensational things , and they think you have low tastes. But I think “emotion” is extremely important to people. When you have no emotion, your music or your art will appear cold (French modern music). It is very logical and sometimes artistic . It is very, very high and you really can’t reach it. But what’s the meaning for me ? Sometimes I wonder where the meaning lies. You have raised a very interesting topic. One of Mr. Chen’s earliest works is called “The Lost Time”. I tell you, you must forgive my ignorance in music, but I believe what I said is very honest. In this music, of course he used a lot of French modern music composition methods and instrumentation. He is very good in this aspect, right? But he used the melody of “Three Variations on Plum Blossoms”. Then the review in “Le Figaro” hit him. It seems that according to the fashionable standards of the French at that time or the standards of modern music , how do you create this melody and this emotion? It seems to be relatively low-level . I think this is very interesting . But why is it that after listening to this piece of music, the only thing I remember is this melody? So, is it that the purpose of appreciating modern music is not to leave behind a melody that we can recite and chant endlessly , but to obtain the so-called sound of that time , this complex combination of instrumentation, and to get an experience of that time ? Suddenly I found a very interesting phenomenon here . This chain of contempt. In Russian novels or reality, they regard France as very important. The so-called aristocracy means speaking French. You are not talking about English, right? But the French do not regard these Russian writers who escaped here, even if they are very accomplished, as that is not that important. Our Chinese literature regards Russia as very important, right? Russia’s influence on us is life-long. We regard Russia as very important because of the history of the Soviet Union. If there is no such history, I cannot imagine how the Chinese would view Russia. You know, because in the 1950s, the only country that could enter was Russia. Others could not enter. But at least in the 1930s, Lu Xun and others had already focused on translating “Destruction” and “Gorky”, including Northeast Europe. But this has something to do with the left wing, right? I think it has something to do with the left wing . Yes, it has something to do with it a little . In general, the Chinese’s interest in Russian literature is related to the political environment, but you cannot say that the Chinese are interested in Russian things. They are not interested in Western Europe . They are also interested. Their interest in Western Europe is basically limited to appreciation , or there is a time. What is this time difference called ? The France that we are most interested in is the France of Victor Hugo. The French think that this is something from the last century. They describe social and historical changes and movements with sensational emotions. Our best adjective now is to show the fate of the nation through the life of so-and-so , etc. In France, after existentialism and the New Novel School, they have long regarded it as a thing of the past . What we worship is their (past). However, there is indeed a problem of artistic standards. For example, we say that the French or the French intellectuals seem to take the history of Russian literature and music very lightly. But in fact, isn’t Tolstoy an absolute standard? Or is it that there is no music that is good? Can it be said that it is not good? It depends on who interprets it. If you were Nabokov teaching literature to students in the United States, he would turn off all the lights in the room, draw the curtains, and then turn on a light and say, you see, Russia was dark before. This light is, for example, Kafka or to give a random example , and then open all the curtains and say that after the curtains are opened, the sunlight comes in . That is Tolstoy. It depends on who is speaking and from what angle. It’s different , right? Nabokov talked about the so-called three golden ages of Western literature that we now generally accept. In terms of British and American values, one is the Homeric period of ancient Greece, the second is the British literature of the Shakespeare period, and the third is the Russian literature of the 19th century. That is to say, it is the highest peak of the three literatures in human history. Some demanding people often ask why Lu Xun and others cannot reach Tolstoy. It is very troublesome to compare each country in this way . But the point that Professor Chen just mentioned is very important. France has its own set of standards for artistic judgment that are not determined by the mainstream of Britain and the United States. At a very high level, it influences the mainstream values ​​of the United States. I remember that at that time I met a French student who was already very old. He had studied for a doctorate for many years. He came to China to study Lao Tzu. He said something to me that left a deep impression on me. When he heard that I was going to the United States, he said, “Oh, it’s so pitiful. You have to get in touch with art and English there .” I thought to myself that throughout the 19th century, you all competed with Britain all over the world, and later your colonies were all very bad, while Britain’s colonies were relatively much better, right? I told him that this is a basic historical fact in the history of world development, but France He looks at it from the perspective of art. He thinks that following the British, especially the Americans, is corrupting them. China is also very good. He believes that China is very good. Let’s not forget Zao Wou-Ki in France, right? Now it is in France that Chinese writers and Chinese art have achieved the highest status in the world, so they are not influenced by the mainstream values ​​of Britain and the United States . In fact, there is a passage in Mr. Chen’s book that answers your question just now. You said that the comment in “Le Figaro” the next day had such a big impact. He wrote about a performance of Tan Dun in France. In our opinion, he chose a piece of music with a strong melody, but the French audience started to make a noise. What they meant was that we don’t want to watch this , we don’t want to listen to this. They think that you are catering to our tunes. We don’t understand it and may think that the melody is good, and we think it is good . But he thinks that you are catering to us, that it is vulgar, that it is not artistic enough, and that it is not elegant enough. They don’t want these things. So this matter is very funny when we talk about it. I think sometimes a trend will be formed. Of course, this metaphor may be inappropriate. For example, there was a time when Wang Shuo’s novels were very popular. The impact it brought was both good and bad. Sometimes it was a bit too much. For example, the anti-worship Once it becomes a kind of popular culture, if I say something very sincere and valuable, you will feel embarrassed, do you understand? You will blush. It will gradually produce a kind of teasing thing, that is, if you reveal too much of your inner feelings , or of course, because we have experienced that era in the past , there will be some propaganda that is too false and empty. But in the end, there will be a subversive trend. This subversive trend is a bit like bringing about a certain standard of French modern music that you mentioned , that is, no matter how you express your feelings, it is so sour, right? And what about my land ? It is too low-level. But last time I met a Hong Kong filmmaker, he also said that we made a movie called “October Besieged City” , in fact, the movie is quite good . He said that it contains something about Dr. Sun Yat-sen, that is, it talks about the Xinhai Revolution. That is to say, we think that the words of those martyrs are very sincere and touching. But why do some people laugh in mainland cinemas? They laugh because they have not experienced such a cultural change as us . So sometimes we feel that even if you are sincere, there will be misunderstandings. For example, when we are shooting a movie, a guest cries while he is talking, then I say that crying is also good, so we can use it for a longer time. I really found that the younger generation is different from me. The young editors and directors said to Mr. Wentao, “Just do it roughly. Don’t show him crying.” People said we were too sentimental. I said he didn’t do it on purpose . It was natural and sincere. Why? But if he didn’t cry, maybe you said he was acting . He wasn’t acting. He was moved by the scene . The environment made him more want to express himself. That’s what you said. For example, the things in “Lost Time” (by Chen Qigang) seem to be looked down upon by their fashion. No, I think what I am particularly touched by in French art is that they will limit and restrain before reaching the peak. Restraint , restriction , restriction , and restraint are the embodiment of elegance. If you don’t know how to restrain yourself and indulge yourself, it will give people goose bumps and make them feel too timid. This person is not good. But isn’t restraint too deliberate? Art is deliberate . When you mentioned restraint just now, I thought of Jane Birkin. Didn’t she always carry a basket at the beginning ? Didn’t people always carry a vegetable basket when carrying that famous bag ? When I was a kid, I thought carrying a vegetable basket was very cool, but now I think it’s very deliberate . Behind your casualness is deliberate, and behind your restraint is also deliberate ? For example, is it deliberate to wear makeup ? Yes , if you don’t wear makeup , some people will think you are a savage , a rough person , but if you must wear makeup, some people think you are pretentious . They have different opinions , but the influence of a country’s national history and tradition on the country is irreversible. When you go to France, you must not be sensational. You think a person should do whatever he wants, right? If you want to do it, just be yourself . That ‘s fine, but there is no need for sensationalism. When I was a graduate student, I still remember that we were arguing about this issue in our graduate dormitory. One of them believed that art is true feelings. Now I have true feelings, I express them, I cry , I shout, I curse, this is art. Therefore, many of us like Ba Jin , etc. The other school is what I mentioned earlier. We call it positive romanticism , such as Byron and Shelley . In addition, Coleridge and Wordsworth They believe that art is not about venting passion , but that passion cools down and becomes an artistic format. That is what art is. So the French, at least, introduced it to Professor Chen. The contemporary French art world tends to accept what we call negative romanticism, which is a literary view that when you cry, it is not art. If you are still crying at this time next year, and you write about it, it may be art. If you follow your standards, I think some of the guests who appeared on Lu Yu’s show were not restrained enough. You have to look at the times. But for the most passionate people , you have to look at the times. He may have shed tears ten years ago, and it might have been acceptable in that era. If you put it in today’s world, do you feel that there is some slight sensationalism? Chinese society has also changed, right? Everything has changed. I think that the French respect other cultures in terms of their value standards, or do they think they are superior? So I heard that the French intellectual community has a kind of arrogance . Yes, it is indeed like that. It is very obvious. But if you criticize him specifically, saying that he (thinks) he is superior, he may not even realize it. He does not think he is superior to others. He is just very resolute and clear. If someone says that this is not okay, he will say that your values ​​are different from mine. At this time, we should do this and that. The influence of French culture on China is actually quite complicated. It can be divided into two levels. One level is the contemporary France that Professor Chen just talked about. In terms of values, it is from the 20th century. It is more transcendent and calm. It believes that freedom is more important than justice, etc. However, when it influenced China more than a hundred years ago , compared with British culture, it emphasized revolution, equality, and justice . France is my most typical example. Shanghai has two cultures . The Bund Racecourse in Huangpu District is British culture and entertainment is horse racing. Most people are serious and work in banks. However, French culture is represented by Huaihai Road, Xujiahui, and Hengshan Road. What are the representatives? The Plantain Tree Cafe, dance hall, and bookstore. As a result, these two cultures have been formed in Shanghai for a hundred years. The culture that Chinese people believe in mainly refers to French culture. It is said that Hong Kong is rich but not cultured. In fact, if we use British standards, Hong Kong is very cultured. It has the Racecourse and Central. It talks about laws and morals. It has a lot of things . But Chinese people think that this is not okay. These people turned a blind eye to the capitalists exploiting the workers, and would not gather in coffee shops to organize revolutionary activities. So the Cultural Revolution that China later thought of actually originated from France. What the Chinese people like most is that ” Tomorrow is another day “, right? It describes how the workers suffer “Les Miserables”, right? Every word in ” Les Miserables” has touched the hearts of the Chinese people. This France is not actually the contemporary France. There is a century-old misunderstanding here , but I believe that the Chinese people are grateful for the enlightenment that French culture brought to the Chinese people. The spirit of enlightenment of the French Revolution has always been what everyone hopes for. The Chinese revolution was greatly influenced by the spirit of the French Revolution. I want to go to the bathroom , no problem, please put away the microphone. Pick it up, you don’t need this, just turn it off. Or do you need to take a break? It’s okay . Give me some more tea. Thank you. I think what you said about Messiaen is right . He must have a natural sympathy for people from third world countries. If they are American students, he may not even look at them. I think Britain and the United States are economic saviors. He believes that the whole world should be like us. With this economic system, everyone will be better off. France is a cultural savior. If people all over the world can treat the world like us , he thinks that the world will definitely be internationalized. So when you go to Paris, you will find that the French have the worst attitude towards people who speak English with an American accent. They are okay with other people. And you must never call in a restaurant . Coke, your name is Coke , it’s really a terrible thing. They are most resistant to the United States. Every time I am very timid, I say sorry I can’t speak French, can you speak English to me? He said okay. They have this kind of superiority. Behind that is actually inferiority . The current France is not like the past , but it is the only nation that can show this inferiority. Like Italy, they are convinced. It’s all English, right? I won’t be embarrassed for speaking English. The French think that if I talk to you and you speak English, he will think that the most amazing experience I had in Paris was when I was buying a ticket in the subway station and I couldn’t understand what I said. The person didn’t speak English either. I couldn’t understand what I said. I was anxious . The person behind me suddenly spoke Chinese to this person and I was shocked. The ticket seller was French I turned around and saw that the person who was talking was an American. They started speaking in Chinese and I was stunned because this is what many people in Lu Yu wanted to do many years ago , maybe before 2000. I was stunned. Then the man seemed to be a student studying in China. Then I asked the French ticket seller how could you speak Chinese? He said that he was going to work in the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the future . I taught myself Chinese. This person was very funny. I thought he was very forward-looking. I was curious whether he had worked in the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs and was stationed in the Chinese Embassy. In fact, I felt that France seemed to have an imaginary interest in China. There was an imaginary interest in the beauty of misunderstanding. You include this art , which is directly influenced by this . Matisse (1869-1954) The works of French painter Matisse. And why do I say Orientalism? They once had an imagination , of course, this imagination was shattered later. They thought that the East represented the kind of intoxicating, mysterious , luxurious and decadent, right? It was rich in gold and spices , right? It was that kind of place. This is really interesting. The East looks at the West , and the West looks at the East . You know, I saw an exhibition in London a while ago. Ancient Greece fought with Persia , and Persia lost the battle. But the imperial culture of Persia influenced the Greeks. Greece is Greece. There are some sculptures here. They started drinking and feasting standing up, because Greece is a civil society where everyone is equal, right? Then, after they fought a war with Persia, although they defeated Persia , they also saw the glory of Darius of Persia . Wow, there are so many people accompanying you . So, if you look at Greek sculptures, you will see this theme of people lying on their backs and wearing Persian blankets. I am lying down, and you are standing and drinking with me. So I said that corruption is not about luxury , which is irresistible. Everyone knows that it is comfortable, you know? Even if it is a Westerner, when he sees the soft and fragrant Oriental jade, he will feel intoxicated. Of course, it is actually the ruling class of the East, right? But they can be infected and learn a little bit . He doesn’t learn the whole thing . For example, we know an American who is a multinational company in China . The first time he went to China to have his feet massaged, he felt itchy and was totally opposed to it. He said , “We can’t accept it . How can another person massage my feet ?” I said, ” We are all familiar with each other.” I went there once. Now every time he comes to Beijing, he doesn’t have dinner with us on the first night. He says, “I’ll go get a foot massage first.” You know, I found that it was comfortable. You know, there is a particularly interesting paragraph in Teacher Chen’s book, but some details are particularly funny. He wrote that it was so interesting when Teacher Chen came. It’s okay, you continue to talk about Teacher Chen. I just happened to be talking about your book, Teacher Chen. I think he wrote about one thing. When Jarre came to Beijing to hold a concert, there were several popular musicians in China at that time. They were popular musicians like Jarre and Yanni . They were very popular in Beijing. Electronic music was popular , but Jarre was not. Then, some of Teacher Chen and his classmates or colleagues went to Beijing to hold a concert. I went to watch and listen to it with great interest and expectation, and then I was very disappointed. It was completely different from what I imagined. I thought, my God , Teacher Yaerchen is very brave to write this. For us, because I don’t know what other people think. I am just talking about our feelings at that time. It’s not just my feelings. When you get into a professional environment and get in touch with this, you will find that there is also Richard Clayderman. The same is true for Richard Clayderman. Is Richard Clayderman very vulgar in your eyes ? Not in my eyes. Yes , maybe in the eyes of professional music circles, there will be such a feeling, but we don’t know. When I first heard it as a child, I thought it was quite good, but later I couldn’t listen to it anymore. What is the standard? For example, if young people want to learn music now , right ? Everyone wants to be the best. If you ask me what the best standard is , what is the standard? What kind of work should I produce to make me the best? What is my standard ? Well, I have thousands of standards and I am my standard. Then how can I admit that you are the best? You don’t need to admit it . Only people with such courage can finally get the vitality they deserve. If I use your standard to do my work, then I have no soul and my own standard. Art is just like this. I think art is closely connected with personality. What can I say about personality? That is to say , a person can have ideas , but in the end, you must realize your ideas through your own behavior to be considered as having ideas , rather than
just having an idea. Then the realization of this idea is actually closely connected with your personality, that is, your outlook on life. Closely connected, if you don’t even have a view on life and your own pursuits, then your art will definitely be pale and powerless. This is the case with Richard Clayderman, because we can hear that his goal is actually any work of art . When he is creating it, if he has selfish thoughts or evil thoughts , he can’t escape it at all. For example, today everyone is talking about AI , right? AI can write music, right ? But I think most people who talk about AI are people who play with AI , not AI itself . AI itself doesn’t speak, it doesn’t say how great it is, because in order to prove that this thing is effective and feasible, AI must create that music. When you take out the finished product and see it , it’s simply child’s play. Even the most basic thing is our composition. People write music faster than AI , and people don’t like to write this kind of music. Then, will it collect enough data ? It has learned all the music materials of mankind, and finally it will come out with something impossible ? I think it is impossible, but I may be wrong because I have not seen the future. In the future, I will not be here, and everyone will not be here. We are just arguing about why. I think a great work of art is the embodiment of the human soul . The human soul cannot be collected. You cannot collect it because what AI can do is now, for example, AI can collect information, reorganize information , and then present the reorganized information , and it may be presented very interestingly. This is all possible, but you (AI) cannot write this Tolstoy wrote “Romeo and Juliet”, “Les Miserables”, “Dream of Red Mansions” It is totally impossible for AI to write this thing because it has no soul , isn’t it? But you know, Mr. Chen, kids nowadays are very interesting. I have chatted with several young people before. Their kids nowadays are using AI. For example, when they chat with AI using Chat GPT, they will praise AI and say, “AI, you are awesome , you are so smart and know everything.” They want to leave a very good record in the AI ​​world. They believe that AI will definitely be a part of our human society in the future. They want to have a good relationship with them before that. They should please them first. It is very interesting. Then AI will say, “There is nothing special about us . We are just a model of AI, that’s all.” Your trying to please the audience is despised by real artists. Your trying to please AI now shows how smart the young people of today are. But what AI can do is its answer, which is just like that. It also collects information and summarizes a result. It is impossible for it to produce a very great work of Genesis. Now the problem is that there is an unknowable You see, Kissinger is also concerned about the future of mankind. He had a dialogue with some people who work on big data and wrote a book. I think after reading this book over and over again, I remember one sentence . They kept saying one thing , which is that we humans used to know the principles of cars and the reasons behind them, so we were able to control them. But what is the real change now ? Although we have designed the program , we no longer know what it is thinking inside. We don’t know it. For example, why it is pushed on the online platform now , even the administrator of the platform doesn’t know what is going on inside it. You think it should follow the program we input and it should choose it, but it chooses it , just like playing chess. Until now, you don’t know how the thing you designed makes this choice, because the amount of data is too large. There is an output that is unknown. For example, is it possible that even as a coincidence, one day a song comes out and moves the entire audience to tears ? Is there no such possibility? I don’t think so. If no one tells me, even if I say that this is composed by Chen Qigang , this is not possible. It’s AI. Everyone burst into tears after listening to “You and Me”. It’s too easy for “You and Me” . This is what we call true creation. It’s not this thing. It’s the human mind. This cannot be created because it is irreplaceable. You can’t say that this AI can have a brain-computer interface , right? I know what’s in your mind , but your spiritual feelings are not what you think in your mind. It ‘s a very empty thing. The reason why music is great and sacred is that it is actually different from all other arts. It is invisible and intangible. There is nothing. It is in space. This is a feeling . This is a form that is very appropriate to the human soul , that is, all the seven emotions and six desires of human beings. This form is me and you . For example, as an AI, I have a brain-computer interface with you. Even if I understand you, I only understand you as one person, I can’t understand humans. I think your view of this art is close to a belief. This is a very traditional view of art. I think if I were the boss of a big company, I would order them to do such an experiment. For example, you input all the words that Lu Xun said into a machine . This is not difficult to do technically, right? And you also tell the machine the background of his words and who he is talking about. Who is who and what is the situation ? After the machine is completed, you raise a new question. For example, there is a new work, Nabokov’s book, and now there is something in Chinese society, “A tree of pear blossoms overshadows a crabapple tree.” What do you think? Then the “Lu Xun” of this machine will use it. When there is wind or nothing, we talk about Lu Xun. We have to talk about Lu Xun. Lu Xun appears to cover us. Based on all his previous logic, including emotions and anger , can it produce an article for us to see ? We all hope to see how it reacts to something it doesn’t know. So if this method is feasible, we can comment on what the “Lu Xun” made by this machine is like. It may be outrageous and impossible , or it may be a bit like Lu Xun , etc. Then there is more than one Lu Xun. You can make thousands of Li Shangyin and Li Bai, right? Countless people can be produced in this way. Of course, this is very boring. This is a very boring thing. This also talks about the reception aesthetics you just mentioned. From the perspective of us creators , we are unwilling to believe it, but who knows what kind of reaction it will give to the recipient from the perspective of the recipient. The impression is that he can create a hundred Lu Xuns , but that is a thing of the past. That is not innovation, right? Because I think it is a human creation. It is something unique, forward-looking and innovative. This is something that machines cannot do. For example , Musk can bring humans to Mars, right? But this does not mean that the ultimate development of the human soul will still be a bunch of stinky people on Mars , right? If there is any change, you will start to destroy that place again, right? You live out new values. I think the sacredness of art itself is a divine thing , which is really uncopyable. He believes that art can be compared to the atomic bomb and can defeat absolutely any weapon . How to say it is that it can bring human life to the extreme. This is impossible for anything else. The atomic bomb cannot bring it to extreme destruction
, right ? There is only art in this form. It transcends the power of a certain person or a group of people as an example , because art is completely out of thin air. It is a special kind of imagination of human beings , and this kind of imagination can make people become great , brave , and change people . So, the people who can change that you are referring to are a small group of people or the general public? This reminds me that you yourself would often sigh and say that the circle of classical music nowadays is just such a small circle. It is even a bit like what I remember about Einstein , who said that there were probably only five people in the world who could understand what he was saying. But it is such a small circle, and I can feel that it is so magical. Let me first ask you a word, what is texture? Texture is the combination of one sound with another sound or a group of sounds with another group of sounds in the process of forming music , which is woven together. For example, I understand it as a variety of timbres, sounds , harmonies, etc. It is this kind of woven relationship. People who really listen to music can hear this. I saw a Finnish musician reading his score and he said that in the process of reading, he found that Chen Qigang’s score had no extra notes. Maybe some works have some meaningless notes. In order to enrich it, he said that he found that every note had no extra notes. This reminds me of the influence of ancient Chinese culture on you, which is to say, every note of mine has its meaning. So this Finnish musician said, I feel I have to grasp every note carefully because if one of the notes is removed, its structure will collapse. My first feeling after seeing it is that if you take out ten notes from Mr. Chen’s work, I still think it can stand up and it won’t collapse. But you see, it is so subtle that it is definitely not something that most people can understand, but it leads the way . For example, not everyone can drive a Mercedes-Benz, right? But it leads the public to say that it is a good thing . Mercedes-Benz leads us. I am not just joking about this in the automotive field. So I think there is no need to deny that there is indeed a kind of spiritual aristocracy , right? Some art seems to have figured out this kind of high-end and sophisticated technology . In China, why has Kunqu Opera become an intangible cultural heritage and not many people (can understand it)? So I would like to discuss this issue with you . That is, can we say that Chinese music emphasizes melody and seems to be more casual in rhythm ? And Western music emphasizes structure . So do these two reflect cultural differences? How is this caused? Why is China? You see, I even associate it with Chinese paintings with lines. The art of silk is like a spring silkworm spinning silk . You see, we are all the same thing, indeed melody. I myself feel that I don’t have a strong sense of rhythm. For example, when I sing karaoke, I can sing the melody, but I don’t know which point to sing which word. Do you think this is a national characteristic ? It should be. In fact, the Han people don’t have a strong sense of rhythm . If we compare music with painting, I think the development of Chinese painting art is much more extreme than music . For our music, I think it is still at an improvisational level . Most literati play the guqin and so on, but they are actually just pretending to be elegant. In fact, they are not professional musicians , that is, professional composers . Professional musicians actually did not exist in Chinese history, but it formed a tradition of sound . These sounds are what we hear and what we are used to. These sounds have influenced our overall thinking, including modern music. So why do I attach great importance to it? Because that is me, that is the environment we grew up in. If you abandon this, where do you start? If you only start from the West, isn’t it meaningless? Why do we have to do the same as others? Yes, I think you are a so-called You are a good example of telling Chinese stories well. You used a lot of Chinese music materials and the soul of the Chinese nation, but you also won the love, acceptance and even astonishment of Western music audiences. How did this happen? There is a process, right? You leave first and then return. It is such a process . Leaving is necessary. You must see China from a distance to know China. If you live forever in this environment in China , you will have no idea what China is like. So we may become arrogant or self-deprecating. Chinese intellectuals, in particular, have these two extremes . Either they learn purely from the West, or they think they are great enough. We have thousands of years of history . In fact, the more you learn, the more you find that each culture has its own merits. There are things in every culture that are worth learning . So why did you achieve success in that place or something ? This is really not the case. I think if you have a certain degree of success, it is because you have become a symbol. The so-called symbol is you. Because most people don’t want to do it, you know, they want to succeed. For example, we are doing this program now. We need traffic. At this time, the quality of our program It must go down, because I have to adapt to certain market requirements , right? If you adapt to market requirements, the quality will go down. We’re about to play Richard Clayderman. If you adapt to market requirements, you become another person, you know, it’s not yourself anyway. But if you insist on being yourself, I believe that ‘s how I have come through the decades. That is, I wanted to be a good student from the beginning. I really hope to be a good student so that I can stand out among the good students and become a person that everyone likes. But in the end, it may be related to my personality , the family education I received since childhood, our social growth environment , and our Taizhou bloodline. I can’t get rid of it, so I naturally have to do what I like to do. This was definitely a blow to me at the beginning , and it is also a luxury. Many people don’t have this choice at all . For me, luck still plays a role here. So what Mr. Chen said is particularly good. He said that when he went to France, he was a Chinese tree that grew to 30 years old. He was transplanted to France , and then came back and became a world tree that was transplanted back. I think this is also particularly suitable for his music, right? Because if you don’t have cultural roots, it’s difficult for you to grow up. For a big tree, but if you think like this, you must be a third-rate composer. Thinking like this means that you have to use Chinese national things. That is to say, if you think that only by using China can you succeed, you must be a third-rate composer, because you are a cultural export company , a patchwork of Friendship Store , a little bit of the East and a little bit of the West, put them together to make you happy , and to make you happy, no one is happy. Finally, what Teacher Chen said is that you are talking about artistry, humanity and heart nature are in the front, and family and country are in the back. From an artistic point of view , I think family and country are actually you, I think a composer or an artist , in fact, where you live is not the most important thing. The most important thing is where you can find freedom and the possibility of independence . At this time, that place may be your spiritual home , that is, it may become your home . At this time, the music you create is actually you, as a Chinese, a young person who grew up in Taiwan, China, you must carry everything that place has left for you, you really can’t get rid of it. In fact, this is just not distinguishing between good and bad . We often talk about the Chinese style in a narrow way. It must be a Chinese melody or Chinese opera. This is called Chinese style. In fact, it is not the Chinese character . The Chinese character is what we just said about being “sentimental” (lyrical) , being affectionate or being sentimental . It must be a hybrid with the Western one that absolutely cannot be sentimental. It must be like this. All successful Chinese works , that is, works written by Chinese people, raise a big problem. It is not just music, but also other art forms such as novels. Is it possible for Chinese novels to become first-class novels without writing Chinese stories ? This is the problem that the Japanese have , right? It is just a question like this. That is to say, it is only in terms of race. They are Chinese. Xia Zhiqing criticized China’s 20th century literature at that time , saying that they were too obsessed with China , that is, too obsessed with China. Jameson’s postmodern theory is that the countries in the third world must be allegories of the nation-state , and the literature of the third world must be an allegory of its own nation-state. So this positive and negative are both emphasizing one point , that is, Chinese writers , like the book I am writing now, are definitely telling Chinese stories, whether they are intentional or unintentional. So the problem now is that on the one hand, a very basic problem is that if this Chinese person does not live in China, he will spend the rest of his life there. If he is writing somewhere abroad , is it possible that he does not write Chinese stories? He is no longer like those Chinese writers who are popular overseas now. He writes about the suffering of several generations , how women’s rights are oppressed, etc. If he does not write such stories, will he enter the world literary world and be recognized by the world ? Anyway, in my field of vision, I did not find that this is actually a natural thing. Just like Teacher Chen, can you break away from your soil? Or the most convenient thing for you to borrow is all the experiences you have in this country. So this is self-evident. On the contrary, if you keep talking about it, I think it will affect the mentality of creation . But people will eventually come back. I think it is what you just said. Now I think that many young people now deliberately write in a non-native language. Later, I felt very curious why they had to do this . Then I found that all artists living overseas, whether they are musicians, painters or writers , they will show a state of aphasia in a foreign environment. This state of aphasia is very interesting. On the one hand, you will be very vulnerable because you cannot express yourself and cannot express yourself deeply. But at the same time, because you are in a state of aphasia, your expression once you express You will become very bold and will say some emotions that you cannot or dare not express in your native language, right? Just like I know that some international students are a little shameless when they are in love. Those passionate love words have to be said in English to be natural, that is necessary, right? Because they don’t have the feeling, right? They think it is shameful to say it in Chinese . It’s not just because they don’t have the feeling, because Chinese doesn’t have the habit of expressing it, right? Who would say “I love you” and the like without any reason, right? I remember once I was having a meal in a restaurant and there was a table next to me with a man who was a musician whom I knew , and there was a foreign girl next to him. She suddenly said to me, “Lu Yu , you want to hang out with me after dinner.” I wanted to say, “You are really cramming before getting married, and you are piercing your ears. ” So this is very interesting. What we are talking about is very light-hearted and happy. I think Mr. Chen, it also has something to do with your personality. In his early years, he even felt that happy music was generally superficial and there was no good music. He felt that good music had to be melancholy. Literature is like this , and so is performance. Most good works are tragic, right ? Because people are tragic . Everyone here is tragic in the end. Is it because of this reason? We cannot escape fate, joy and sorrow come from the same source , because we cannot escape the fate of tragedy. Shouldn’t we grasp something non-tragic? But why? Because humans have no feelings for non-tragic things . Is it because life itself gives you all the memories with sadness in the middle? So I want them to find a photo because this photo brings up a question for me. You see him coming out to take the curtain call. Have you ever seen any composer like that? I think why you were like that at that time? It seems that behind you is Yu Long, right? What ‘s this expression like? Because that was less than two months after Yu Li (Chen Qigang’s only son) passed away. They specially invited me to Guangzhou to perform “The Lost Time” and everyone had special feelings . I was really sorry. When you went on stage to take the curtain call, you see Yu Long, it was really that time. You thought of Yu Li, yes, you couldn’t help it, because the scene was like that at that time . The whole rehearsal process , because after his death, every time I listened to a concert, I had a feeling of sorry , sorry, sorry, sorry, son , yes, sorry , I am still enjoying, I am still enjoying life, this feeling, Teacher Xu, you know , I think it can be very good for us . Many people who encounter misfortunes in life are a comfort or a helper. It was a huge blow to him when he lost his beloved son. But I also think that you actually said it today. You said that time can really heal everything . Yes, no matter how painful the loss is , can time heal it? But the pain itself is deeply engraved in the heart. It’s just that you can’t live in this atmosphere every day. It stops your desire and possibility of survival. And you may do better in many things in this feeling. Why do I have many works, “The Same Origin of Sadness and Joy”, and so on, because he was deeply moved by “Wan Nian Huan”, “The Same Origin of Sadness and Joy” , and “Jiang Cheng Zi” (all works by Chen Qigang). Ten years of life and death are both vague . I can’t think about it, but I can’t forget it . This is the Chinese nature. What we are talking about is expressing a kind of emotion , a very deep emotion, which is directly connected to the soul, etc. At this time, you won’t think about how fashionable it is for Westerners to not be sensational. So you will have a natural kind of soul inspiration, a kind of power and courage to do something you don’t like. I just like it. As long as I feel it, I believe that this power is certain. It is super The more man-made environmental factors there are, the more vitality it will naturally have. But most of us , as creators, once we enter the professional field of literature, it’s actually the same. We will all think about whether this is fashionable or not, and what other people’s comments will be. Filmmakers are particularly taboo. I think the most taboo thing is to do things that please the public when we make movies. They will think about how the box office will be , etc. Can there be a good movie? But I also think that you have suffered so much. And you see Mr. Chen’s health. He basically comes out to do our program and he may be sick for more than ten days after returning. This is his physical condition . But you see my analysis of some of your behaviors. Two years ago in Shanghai , he left his retreat and went to Shanghai. This was a huge physical test for him , so much so that he had a fever. He had a fever when he got there. Just like today when we arrived, he also felt that his physical condition was not very good. I am shaking now. I am thinking in my heart, let’s end it quickly . There is no need for this. Since we are here, just have fun and risk our lives . So I wonder why? Why are you willing to come out and speak or publish your book in such a dangerous situation ? Because of Dou Wentao Because we did such a great job on the show last time. It’s very simple. You know, I was so moved. Normally, I don’t like to see people. I have so little energy. I’m not good at small talk . People ask how are you? How are you ? How are you? This makes me very anxious, you know. But when this thing is meaningful and can effectively share your inner feelings with people, it is something worth spending your life to do. Don’t underestimate it. It will give back to you and help you throughout your life . So after our show was broadcast last time, many people told me that you found a “treasure boy”. I said I found a “treasure old boy”. Right? He said he lived in seclusion in the deep mountains. Because not many people know about his circle, right ? Many people don’t know about it. It’s the Olympic theme song. Everyone knows it. Let me tell you , you are slowly getting to know his character. For example, if there is a scheduled performance that I’m not satisfied with in my work, I will compensate for all the economic losses and I won’t perform. And every conversation must be sincere, so I always have the impression that you are like an old soldier who goes forward bravely and perseveres to the end, leaving marks. Sometimes I think you are such a person. I can’t find a suitable adjective . You have to do everything seriously , which is like what he said just now. For example, if you want to meet this teacher, you have to do your best to prepare for every opportunity . Wasting any opportunity is unforgivable. You say that this person is not sick, but actually destroying his body. I know that when I was young, I still had physical strength. I think destruction is destruction. Then when I got old, I was very cautious, but although I felt that I had an obligation, for example, I popularized it in rural areas That music education is for the children of farmers. They should receive a good education, especially being able to go out of the countryside and see the bigger world. Giving them a chance will have a huge impact on their lives. I know this, so I will try my best to do what I can, but I won’t do those things that are just for fun. I think it’s meaningless to me. And I suggest that everyone read this book. This book is a treasure, right? I think you can dig out a lot of things. I think every historical era he has experienced is really remarkable. And for a person like him, if you say he is from Taizhou, he has the kind of stubbornness to tell the truth with his neck stuck out. It’s hard, but you have to stick your neck out and offend people and tell the truth. As a host, we all know how difficult this is. We can choose not to say it, we can choose not to say it , but we can’t do it like him, not giving face to others or even to the powerful. I want to ask you, in your value system, do you pursue leaving a name for others and a voice for others? No, I pursue me . The work can be integrated with me , which means that you sincerely do something , for example, a work. This work must be equivalent to your eternal life at this time , rather than leaving a name behind because leaving a name behind may be successful no matter what method is used . But I am not like that. I just want to do one thing. So generally, people who come to me are afraid. I know what they are afraid of. Rejection . I will definitely refuse 99% of them. I refuse . Then I have a curiosity, Mr. Chen. Recently, I read your book and you said that you want to leave that work behind . Have you ever thought about the future fate of the work ? Because I am particularly curious . Wagner must not have thought that his later works would be regarded as national music by Nazi Germany . Then how did he control the fate of his works? This was not something he could control. But when you gave this example, I was also touched because he was too , too snobbish. I think because he built a theater for himself, he stipulated for himself what he could and could not do after his death, and then he had a complete set of theories to promote his I think thoughts, music and all these things are outside of music and outside of art. So you can hear a lot of traces of pretending to be great in his music. Of course, I said that no one would listen to this because Germany is an incredible country with a lot of culture, especially music culture. They do have their own traditions and self-contained glory . We don’t have that , but I think I just want to be an independent person in the middle. I don’t know what the final result will be, but I am still quite satisfied. Because seventy years have passed, I may not have the energy or energy to do another one, because there are still many people who come to me and hope that I can (create). I can understand this feeling . In fact, I really hope to continue, but when I really want to concentrate on doing something, I completely lose the impulse of my youth. In fact, the important works I wrote were all written in that era. It can be said that I didn’t spend much effort. It’s just that you are that kind of person and you speak like that. You are done, it is over. You have to do it seriously, but now it is not possible. You have to use all your life, the last breath of your life, to do it. It is still difficult, but I still want to. After all, I haven’t written music for five years. Five years have passed in a flash. From 2019 to now, I wanted to regroup and give it a try, but recently my body made me feel that God is not on my side. It ‘s okay now . What is the state of mind and body when writing music ? Writing music must be a state of putting life into it. So why do I also have failed works? I know what I did in the process and what kind of selfish thoughts I had. I was a little bit short of sincerity. You can see it in this work. Not only is it lacking in sincerity , but also Poor energy, poor power, poor technique . This is indeed a very difficult thing. Music creation is quite difficult. I have always been curious because when we read literary works and watch movies , we talk about artists, musicians, and painters . They all have a muse. It may be a specific person or a certain religious belief. In short, it is a muse . What is your muse ? You can only know it when I don’t have a fixed person who is always the best. It is only relative or when I hear this work or at this time of this person. For example, Stravinsky’s most famous works such as “The Rite of Spring” and “The Firebird” are from this period around 1913 , and Ravel’s “Daphnis and Chloe”. These are the works that really impressed me. As for other works, you will feel differently at different times. But actually, I think when it comes to the great figures in the history of music, Mozart is a genius . He can easily come up with some very smart words. Beethoven is a genius. He really has the spiritual power of life . So I said this , but you didn’t mention any contemporary musicians. I mentioned Ligeti. You know, Ligeti (works) recently held a concert in Beijing. There were only about ten or twenty people in the venue. What does this show? It can only be said that in China, among our Chinese audiences, Because they are still stuck in the 19th century , completely stuck in the 19th century. They don’t want to listen to new things. They don’t feel bored. They listen to the same thing over and over again, and then compare versions , right? Compare orchestras , performers , conductors , and sound systems , right? Isn’t it true that the appreciation standards of music listeners should be constantly updated and improved? You should at least always maintain a sensitive and open mind towards new and different things . But if Ligeti changes his marketing strategy, the audience will probably increase exponentially in Shanghai. But if Ligeti has composed music for these movies , or if he has not composed the soundtracks for these movies, but his music has been used in these movies, then surely many music fans and movie fans will flock to him. When I attended Lu Yu’s film salon ,
there were many people who attended it immediately . I didn’t know this name at first, but then I read your book and searched it. I found that so many movies were related to him. You see, it was this entry point that made many ordinary people who were not music fans think that Ligeti was a genius . Is marketing important? They would definitely look down on great works . I don’t think marketing is necessary because if it has vitality, it will naturally shine. Even in China, it’s the same. For example, Chinese people like Ryuichi Sakamoto so much. I was asking what Ryuichi Sakamoto has done. Is Ryuichi Sakamoto not good? What has he done? He has made some works , not many, right? Not only are they few , but the scope is relatively limited. Moreover, all the music he made outside the scope is suspected of being pretentious. This is I feel that I am a very, this is your personality, I am very prone to criticism, but let me report to you, I watched a documentary about Ryuichi Sakamoto yesterday , it was introduced to China and it was called Ryuichi Sakamoto’s Final Sound or something . It was about a concert he recorded in a very good recording studio on NHK before his death. The entire documentary only had footage and music of him playing live, without even subtitles. It was nearly 108 minutes long, and it was about people who loved him crying their hearts out , and people who didn’t understand him or didn’t know him were also sleeping soundly , presenting two extreme performances. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think it means anything. It’s also possible that he would have been very popular for a hundred years, and this is not my cup of tea . The key is what do you think of idols ? No idol remembers me. In my mind, this idol doesn’t exist. If it’s good, it’s good, and if it’s bad, it’s bad. It’s impossible for a person to be perfect . All his works are great. Even Beethoven , even Beethoven was the same. He also had works that eulogized others, works that were completely unpredictable. Right? Sometimes I think his personality is very contradictory because he always worships aristocrats, especially aristocratic women , and he wants to marry this aristocratic lady. This kind of pretentious and snobbish attitude is contradictory to what he said, right? This is a bit like what we Chinese say, ” A person’s words should be like his character.” That is, a person can, let me put it this way, those who have those great works must be a great work of art themselves. His personality confirms what I have been thinking about. Why did the ancient Chinese say that a scholar must first have knowledge and then literature and art ? He can have flaws , but he must be a great work of art . He must have a personality like a work of art , and be careful. His so-called flaws may not be flaws , but just that you don’t understand. Then we modern people will have a problem , that is, should we distinguish this artist from his work? Because what is the problem of modern people? We have no way of knowing whether his work is ultimately great or truly vital. So we may encounter a question of how everyone comments on this person, right? This debate is also very fierce, but this thing is not at the same level as the great artists we talk about. I haven’t entered this level yet. I often say Oscar Wilde is a great dramatist and writer, he is a great talent , he wrote so many plays, and then he had these experiences , and finally he escaped from England and lived in France for the last few years. But a hundred years later, it was proved that there was nothing wrong with his behavior , so the key is time . So today when we evaluate some artists, we say how bad this person is, he is not bad, he is really not bad, he is just much better than you, you can’t understand, but you know sometimes we are particularly divided, because a few years ago, I saw an old man next to Avenue Montaigne in Paris, he was very skinny and spoke French very loudly, I saw him and I said, isn’t this Polanski, then as a viewer, I actually have a division in my heart, on the one hand, I like his works, but at the same time, there are some things in his life that I can’t ignore, I think we really have no way to evaluate people who are too close to us, we haven’t seen whether there are eternal works of art, because we need time, and this time is too short for human beings to survive , right? We have seen three thousand or four thousand years , which cannot be called eternal, it still needs a lot of time, but I understand Mr. Chen’s view of art , which is to insist on being yourself and being sincere. What you want to do and express, and then let time test you. Then maybe this person has already turned to ashes. Of course, right ? You certainly don’t know. You don’t know what your life is like. But what is the ultimate belief in our short life ? Is it the royal power , the tycoon, or the money? If you compare it this way, I would rather believe and worship Rodin’s sculpture. He carved a person out of a large piece of stone, regardless of whether you like this person or not. Can you do this for other great people ? So this possibility of art. You just mentioned that it changes the world, the atomic bomb, etc. I don’t know, but it at least gives us a belief. In fact, even if you are one of the mob , right? You also go to the movies, right?
You also go to the theater, and you also read books , read novels, such as Jin Yong. Everyone has this need . These things actually have an invisible impact on everyone, and the impact is very deep. Then we will say the other way around, that art is just entertainment and it is dispensable. Art is definitely not dispensable. Its power is definitely greater than anything else. It gives each of us, the four of us here, the influence of literary and artistic works since childhood is incalculable. Are there not enough literary and artistic works in any form ? How deeply is the relationship between what we have become today and literary and artistic works that shape the soul ? So I feel sad for those who see the works of art and then say that you are a bunch of actors or something like that. You know, it’s really sad. I only say this. You say that he is an actor. If he is really a bad person, and you are willing to say that, then it is your problem . Maybe he is not bad, but as a human being, his emotions may be different from yours. But what they can do for mankind, whether it is service or contribution , is indispensable. They are the most important factors in the development of society or human civilization. So , for example, when we make this program , right? Although this program is not a literary work , we all use our hearts to communicate with the listeners, right? That’s why it naturally has power. If you sit here and joke with you and say, “I can’t say this or that, and it ‘s not good for me after I finish speaking,” and someone might do something to me after watching it, then our program will become lifeless and have no quality. Really, the three of us are speaking with our hearts. Teacher Chen, I think we are participating in our “Round Table” with our lives . Haha, I think I ‘m exaggerating . I really feel that your sincerity really touches me. Don’t be sentimental. You must be sentimental and you must restrain yourself. I really feel that such emotions are really from the heart. When I see him talking, I’m worried that he is almost out of breath. Don’t cry here. I’ve known you for so many years, but I’ve never seen you like that (crying). Moderation is noble. If we exercise moderation, we may not have the courage to say that art is the greatest , but at least objectively speaking, there are four activities in human history that cannot be replaced by each other. One is economy, politics, and military, which are all extensions of the economy . The second is science , which is to find the truth of things. The third is religion. Human beings always have to assume a moral pursuit , and the fourth is art. These four things will always be there for human beings , right? So, Mr. Chen just said that the so-called actors are actually soul engineers. I think I also need to add a note. Artists like Mr. Chen create works that nourish people’s hearts and souls. We should have more understanding of them , especially I think this is the case I think everything about him, his life, is reflected here. This guy worked hard, right? He is barely breathing, but he is still thinking about how to pursue the unity of himself and his work. I think you give me a special feeling , that you live very deeply, one step at a time. When you read his book, you can feel every thing. I feel that it is like engraving on steel. Are you a person who pursues to leave traces? When I wrote this memoir, I actually had some ideas. I am not writing a simple history of my own. There are metaphors behind all the chapters. I really want to compare the things that happened in our history of more than 100 years, from the end of the Qing Dynasty when my father lived to the past 100 years when I lived, with the pursuits of people in our society in all aspects, and the thoughts that can be triggered by the past between countries. I think this thing is too profound. This history happened so tragically and then disappeared so tragically that you don’t even know what happened. I have seen such a sentence on the Internet: Fortunately, we are still alive, otherwise we would die without evidence . So you are also a witness. You are now… You are already as old as Confucius. I am not cursing you. You can at least live longer than Mencius . He is not now in the mountains. You should be Peng Zu’s age , and you can also look back on your life . If you were to evaluate your life, how would you feel about yourself? There are many regrets . The regret is not that when I look back on the past, I feel that I did not do this or that. I have not done any of them at all, because I have done everything with all my heart. My regret is that I have grown from youth to adulthood , from immaturity to maturity. During this process, I made many mistakes. Some mistakes make me feel heartbroken every time I think of them. I have gained a lot , but there are still some regrets , even if they are very small. For example, when I was in the most difficult time, I moved into a classmate’s house, and did not pay him enough rent. This is when I think about it. I feel that how could you do that ? It’s not a big deal , but I just gave an example. There are many such examples when you are young and poor. You feel very sorry for others who do not meet your expectations. Later, you gradually understand the creeds of life in the future , that is, you cannot be unified like one person all your life. My later requirement is It is like this , no matter when and who hears anything I say, it cannot contradict what I said ten years ago. It must be like what a person said. You will have a lot of things that you cannot let go of. If you do something wrong, there will definitely be some regrets . For example, the lack of education for your son is a permanent regret and cannot be undone. If you can be more tolerant, right ? Wouldn’t it be better if there were not so many parents who wanted their children to be successful ? Unfortunately, it is irreversible. Do you often immerse yourself in the pain of these past events? Sometimes when you think of them, it is hard not to think about them. Sometimes when you wake up in the morning and think about it, (your son) is gone. At this time, you will have this kind of elderly person who has lost his only child. This is inevitable and you cannot get rid of it. Your current life looks a bit like Tao Yuanming on the surface, but can you say that it is Tao Yuanming’s state of mind? In an environment like Huangniling , it is not because of the secular world itself . It is not easy to avoid it. Especially in today’s society, the Internet is so developed. How can you be alone in a corner and not know what is going on in the world, right? There will always be troubles. Even if you see a piece of news, your heart will still be turbulent . Yes, even if it is news about international affairs, you will think to yourself that this human race is really hopeless. But as we always say, if your heart is far away, the place will naturally be far away . Then is the reverse also true ? That is, when the place is far away, your heart will naturally be far away from this place. Because it is still a new environment after all, I said that France is an environment, China is an environment, and Huangniling is also an environment. What you can experience there is completely different from what you experience outside. You don’t have a dinner party. First of all , there are short videos. There are short videos , but for example, I will never answer the phone. No matter who calls, I won’t answer it. Mr. Chen listens to podcasts, right? Yes , he listens to podcasts. It is not easy for him to come from thousands of miles away from his secluded place. Last time we went to visit you . We came to my retreat. We have no choice. We live in seclusion in the program . We are hidden in the city. We hide behind our masks and can only admire Teacher Chen in our hearts. I really agree with what the audience friends said. I found a treasure in Huangniling, Suichang. The old boy and I feel the same way. Especially today, you came like this, I was really moved. I feel guilty that you have been sick for more than ten days . I am also very moved that you can invite me to such a high- quality program. In front of you, there is no quality . You need a spirit like you to produce high-quality works. Come and learn. Thank you, thank you, Teacher Chen. You see, I am afraid of bacterial infection. I dare not shake hands with you. We have just shaken hands. What should I do? Then I want to shake hands too. Thank you, Teacher Chen . Thank you so much. Okay, let’s go quickly. Teacher Chen, take a rest. Teacher Chen is a person who is so self-reflective that he is harsh . I said that he is obsessed with cleanliness. He even worries I will be polluted by you when I talk to you. If he thinks you are polluting, then it (French modern music) is indeed like you and the so-called cold abstraction in painting. You don’t need to talk about emotions. The Western music is like this. Of course, they also have their own theories . They believe that the essence of the world should not be integrated with my things. They analyze the basic principles of the world. They seem to be scientific. Rationality is very important in their artistic creation. It is much more important than ours. Chinese people don’t talk about this. Chinese people still value emotions and expression of emotions. However, among all art categories, Chinese classical music is the weakest, right ? Music cannot leave documents. This is the most difficult. Your paintings can leave documents, right? There are many things in paintings , and there are many empirical things in architecture. Literature is better , but music cannot leave documents. In addition, you can find what we left behind. What we left behind is relatively primitive, it’s not quite right to say elementary, because we didn’t have any rhythm notation at all. That is, when you write down a piece of music without rhythm , how can you let others know how to play the music? How is it formed ? Why don’t we pay attention to the rhythm? It may be related to the temperament of ancient Chinese literati , because we don’t march in step , march in step, march in step, that is, the ancient Chinese literati didn’t have this habit. Even if the ministers went to the palace, they didn’t march in step, they didn’t step like that, right? So the feeling of the army actually came very late in China. People who march in step came very late . And our celebrations were not accompanied by large-scale music, because at that time there were only a few people who could hear the music, and the sound was very small , so it didn’t have much effect. So at most, the literati were the first people in the room to march by themselves . They are for self-entertainment and not as good as the nomadic peoples like the Xiongnu. It seems that their horses are running with more musicality and the sound of the music in the wilderness is also louder. This may have something to do with the fact that we are scattered and have many musical instruments, such as the huqin and pipa, which were passed down from there . I think Chinese opera music is very distinctive. Of course, our opera music is not notated. This is our shortcoming . We do not have a strict notation for opera music , but we have teachers who teach us, which is also very impressive. However, the teacher-student relationship has actually been around for more than 200 years, which is not a very long time. He said that in opera, the one who plays the huqin will look at the role and ask how many beats you should sing. There is no regulation for it . It is not like jazz, right? It is conventional , but the power of this convention is very strong . The drummer is the soul of rhythm. That is how I beat the drums and everyone follows me, how fast or slow I am, when I start, and when I stop. The classical rhythm of the drum is very rich in traditional Chinese opera. The rhythm of opera is good, yes, very rich. Didn’t we play drums at the beginning of the Olympic Games ? Yes , yes, I forgot. I really want to discuss a question with you. I think this question is very interesting . Is your health okay? He talked for two hours and just remembered that after we interviewed you, we went to Suzhou to find an old Kunqu expert. He talked about a phenomenon. You and I have never thought of this. But I noticed that you mentioned this during the interview. That is, he has the Kunqu singing style in his works. He said that if you want to sing it, you should reverse the word . When we went to Suzhou and talked to this Kunqu teacher, When he talked about this, I realized that the tone of pronunciation of each word in opera in the music should be the same as the tone in your language. Of course, he was talking about Su Dialect. He said that if we put it this way, the words in pop songs are all reversed. He said that we feel uncomfortable listening to them. For example, how can the word “sea” be “big”? You should be the sea, right? He called this an inverted word. I think this question is very interesting. That is to say, when Chinese musicians were accepting Western culture, because English songs don’t have this thing, right? So you see, they put this melody on the Chinese words, and the parts that don’t match are actually very stiff. So, the current pop songs actually come from opera. Do you think that this is a rigid copy of Western music culture when China accepted it a hundred years ago? It ‘s not entirely because when we were learning to compose, we still emphasized the issue of reversing words. But this can only be said relatively, not absolutely . In Chinese opera, it is quite absolute. Moreover, it uses the Zhongzhou accent , which is not the pronunciation in the sense of our Mandarin. So its pronunciation characteristics are also different. If people listen to opera today, can you understand it? You don’t know what words he is singing . If he doesn’t reverse the words , you still can’t understand it because it is relatively far away from our time . However, our modern songs also emphasize it very much. This point is emphasized very much in education. For example, the composer Li Jiefu wrote many poems and lyrics. He paid great attention to this . When we listen to his songs, we can understand that they all match the tone of speech. Some words are not quite inverted, and some are inverted. It is like the Song Dynasty poems that were sung and composed like this. Every word is in accordance with the tone. Of course, we don’t know which dialect he spoke at the time, but it is in accordance with the tone of that dialect. Do you think this should be emphasized? Correct pronunciation should be emphasized to make people understand as much as possible. This sounds very reasonable, right? That is to say, when the tone of your language appears in music, it should still be this tone, and it sounds very authentic. If They say you should have sung a high note , that is, the sound goes up , but your music goes down, which is the easiest way for people to not understand what you are saying. For example, in my “Jiangchengzi”, there is ” Ten Years of Life and Death ” , right? I try my best to make people understand, but some people may not understand. If you write ” Ten Years of Life and Death”, they may hear it as another word. As for Li Jiefu’s words, for example, we are walking on the road, you can hear clearly what you are saying, you say we are together, but when the word “I” comes out, you don’t know whether it is steamed bread or something else . So, everything that is not clear and everything that is not understood is because the intonation and the tone are different. So I think that Mr. Chen puts this kind of opera in this, which is equivalent to a symphonic music work, and the feeling it brings is that if I were French, I would like it very much and I would think it is very special. But I can understand this kind of expressiveness. They say that they can’t understand the words, but they are the common sorrow, sadness and joy of mankind . We can hear this , even if you are … Emotions are common to mankind. I look forward to Mr. Chen’s next work and look forward to your next work. If you can do the next work, I think the most gratifying thing is that it proves that you are in good health.